Has This Cycle Peaked? | 1000x

Watch on YouTube ↗  |  January 14, 2025 at 12:01  |  49:11  |  1000x Podcast
Speakers
Avi Felman — Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management
Jonah Van Bourg — Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol

Summary

The hosts debate whether the crypto cycle has peaked, focusing on Sui and the L1 trade, Hyperliquid's L1 ambitions, AI crypto and agents, KOL token-launch problems, and the macro backdrop for Bitcoin. They view Sui as overvalued now but worth revisiting in the next bear market, while Hyperliquid is seen as undervalued as an exchange with L1 optionality, though timing depends on Bitcoin breaking higher. AI crypto still has room to grow versus DeFi, but framework competition makes individual projects risky; agents are highlighted as the most promising mainstream use case. On macro, they dismiss NFP-driven selling, expect Bitcoin's next leg to $125k-$150k, and prefer avoiding bonds with yields likely higher under Trump.

  • Sui's community and tech are acknowledged, but its valuation and lack of a killer app make it unattractive now; it may be a bear-market accumulation candidate.
  • Hyperliquid's move toward becoming an L1 is discussed bullishly, with exchange valuation and large-holder flows supporting a positive setup.
  • AI crypto is seen as having more room to grow versus DeFi, but framework disruption makes top-10 baskets less reliable; agents are the favored subtheme.
  • Cosmos/ATOM is viewed as done, and decentralized compute/Render is seen as lacking traction.
  • The hosts criticize KOL/angel token launches and a podcast-related token dump, arguing it damages trust.
  • Macro discussion rejects NFP-driven selling, sees Bitcoin potentially moving to $125k-$150k next, and favors avoiding bonds as yields likely rise.
Ideas
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 3:37
Sui overvalued; wait for bear market accumulation.
Sui's rabid community could drive a self-reinforcing rally, but there is no clear unique business case or product that buyers of blockspace would prefer Sui for, and technical superiority has not reliably translated into price. At around a $52 billion market cap, Sui looks overpriced relative to current fundamentals, with no clear killer app and no compelling reason to buy here. He would rather wait for the next bear market and accumulate if the builder/developer community persists.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 5:25
Aptos failed; Sui cannibalized it.
Aptos was the more vaunted launch but failed to capitalize on initial hype, never got the product to the right place, and the founder quit; developers and community did not stick. Sui has cannibalized its niche completely, leaving Aptos without traction.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 7:54
Users prefer monolithic L1s over L2s.
The Sui/Avalanche comparison shows users do not want subnets or L2s; they want one fast base-layer chain because interoperability across many chains is confusing and no one has solved the UI. Ethereum's fracturing reinforces this preference, making L2/subnet exposure unattractive.
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 12:49
Hyperliquid L1 optionality makes exchange undervalued.
Hyperliquid going from an application to an overarching L1 is rare and creates an L1 with a baked-in killer app, massively raising potential valuation. It already has an enriched community of holders with incentive to build more latency-sensitive applications. Even as just an exchange, it looks undervalued at roughly 12-15x forward multiple; if it gets even a few applications as an L1, it deserves a higher valuation. Near term, do not chase the falling knife; scale small now and buy big when Bitcoin breaks out.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 15:42
Cosmos token done, no buying sense.
Cosmos built a good framework and consensus mechanisms, but the ATOM token has no real use and no real leadership; Cosmos as an ecosystem is done and public infrastructure, and the token is not coming back. Buying ATOM makes no sense.
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 19:14
AI coins rally after Bitcoin breakout.
AI coins like AI16Z and Virtuals are hot-money, high-beta tokens that grind lower when sector momentum is absent, but if Bitcoin takes the next leg to $125k-$150k, hot money should flow back and lift those tokens.
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 19:55
Bitcoin next leg to 125-150k.
Bitcoin is ranging around $92k-$98k, but he expects the next leg higher to $125k-$150k. Selling BTC at $92k because of an NFP print before regime change is a mistake; macro data like non-farm payrolls and jobless claims rarely matter unless CPI screams higher. A BTC breakout would bring hot money back into high-beta crypto.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 21:08
Large holders accumulating; missed buyers returning.
Hyperliquid's token flow shows large wallets took profit above $30 and are now buying back below $20-$18; large holders are no longer offloading, and if price holds above those levels, investors who missed the first rally may return. This flow structure supports a bullish stance.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 22:14
Virtuals outpaced; avoid until lower rebid.
Virtuals was good early, but its no-code framework is not good enough for most bots; better competitor frameworks have emerged, and they migrated their own agent to Elisa. The token is in a full downward trend and is being outpaced by every other framework, so it does not make sense to buy now; if it washes out, he might rebid around $2-$2.30.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 23:06
Elisa framework edge; small position only.
AI16Z's Elisa framework is a full-code framework that is popular on GitHub and was chosen over Virtuals' no-code offering because no-code is insufficient for most bots. However, he is underwater on AI16Z after adding on the highs, so only a small position makes sense.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 23:40
AI crypto still far below DeFi peak.
AI crypto market cap is far below DeFi's peak ($10-$15B vs $150B), suggesting there is still much more room for the AI crypto sector to grow. He remains bullish on AI mania coming to crypto, though he is more cautious on individual frameworks because competitors can disrupt each other.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 29:54
Agents will achieve mainstream appeal.
Agents are the part of the AI sector most likely to stick and achieve mainstream appeal over the next 12 months; a bot that posts content, is interactive, and is trained on a unique dataset has universal appeal beyond crypto. Other AI-crypto areas like decentralized compute have not gained traction.
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 30:36
Render lacks traction, not truly decentralized.
Decentralized compute/DePIN has not gotten traction and is not truly decentralized; Render has been trying but is not gaining meaningful adoption. Agents, not decentralized GPU networks, are the AI-crypto area that can cross into the mainstream.
Up Next

This 1000x Podcast video, published January 14, 2025, features Avi Felman, Jonah Van Bourg discussing SUI, APT, Ethereum L2s, HYPE, ATOM, AI16Z, VIRTUAL, BTC, AI-SECTOR, AI agents, RENDER. 13 trade ideas extracted by AI with direction and confidence scoring.

Speakers: Avi Felman, Jonah Van Bourg  · Tickers: SUI, APT, Ethereum L2s, HYPE, ATOM, AI16Z, VIRTUAL, BTC, AI-SECTOR, AI agents, RENDER