Bitcoin Breaks $95k, Crypto’s Valuation Problem, & The Path To Real On-Chain Users

Watch on YouTube ↗  |  November 17, 2025 at 19:28  |  1:06:19  |  1000x Podcast
Speakers
Santiago R. Santos — Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital
Jonah Van Bourg — Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol
Avi Felman — Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management

Summary

The episode discusses Bitcoin's pullback below $95k, why most non-Bitcoin crypto has underperformed despite a bull market, and the valuation problems in the space. Guest Santiago Roel Santos argues that crypto revenues and active users do not justify most valuations, while Bitcoin remains a distinct macro/digital-gold allocation. The hosts debate shorting altcoins, Ethereum's value-capture issues, quality DeFi like Hyperliquid, applications-over-infrastructure, and setups in Bitcoin and the stock market.

  • Bitcoin is treated as a distinct macro/digital-gold asset while non-Bitcoin crypto faces a valuation reset.
  • Santiago argues most projects lack revenue, users, and value capture and could see 80-90% drawdowns.
  • Ethereum is criticized for weak L1 value capture, L2 cannibalization, and high price-to-sales.
  • Jonah discusses shorting altcoins and favors Bitcoin and the stock market into year-end.
  • Hyperliquid and quality DeFi are highlighted as potential survivors/relative winners due real revenue and buybacks.
  • The panel favors crypto applications/killer apps over infrastructure.
  • Western Union is discussed as a cheap remittance operator that could benefit from stablecoin cost cuts.
  • Hosts see a possible Bitcoin bounce while remaining skeptical of most crypto.
Ideas
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 2:45
Most non-Bitcoin crypto is overvalued
Most non-Bitcoin crypto projects cannot justify their valuations on revenue or value capture; the market already priced in the major adoption narratives and there is no margin of safety. With liquidity drying up and insiders/bagholders capitulating, the ex-Bitcoin complex can see severe 80-90% drawdowns.
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 3:33
Bitcoin is unique digital-gold allocation
Bitcoin is in a class of its own versus altcoins: the macro hedge and digital-gold narrative remains intact, it is still less than 10% of gold's market cap, and institutions understand and can hold it. He is comfortable holding BTC and rotating other exposure into it.
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 3:53
Prefer AI over Ethereum
AI is now the main character in technology and he would rather allocate to AI than Ethereum; Nvidia at 30-40x earnings is easier to justify than Ethereum at 200x sales.
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 4:00
Ethereum valuation lacks value capture
Ethereum is a roughly $400B asset generating only $1-2B of fees that are not recurring and can dry up in a bear market. L2s cannibalize value capture, block space is commoditized, and the L1's revenue does not support the valuation, so he cannot justify buying it.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 8:25
Short altcoins as dream fades
Tokens do not file for bankruptcy, but their valuations were supported by the dream of future revenues. Now insiders, crypto natives and bagholders are capitulating, which can take altcoin valuations down a lot; in the new paradigm shorting/selling altcoins may finally work.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 19:42
Hyperliquid buybacks can squeeze higher
Hyperliquid has real on-chain economic activity, and the Hyperliquid Foundation can use trading fees to buy back tokens in an illiquid market. If weak altcoins are sold and quality assets survive, those buybacks could squeeze Hyperliquid sharply higher, though investors must stay solvent and watch entry timing.
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 28:16
Quality DeFi can outperform down market
Certain DeFi protocols with real revenues and reasonable valuations, including Uniswap, Hyperliquid and Syrup, can be underwritten. In a broad drawdown, capital can rotate out of broken altcoins into these quality DeFi assets, allowing them to rise while the rest of the market falls.
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 40:38
Western Union is cheap stablecoin beneficiary
Western Union trades around 4x earnings while the market trades at 25-30x, and it has trust, brand, scale and migrant distribution. Stablecoins/digital wallets can reduce its largest cost, sourcing local liquidity, creating margin improvement and margin of safety.
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 48:10
Crypto value shifts to applications
Value capture in crypto will accrue to deployers and applications that control the user relationship and use open infrastructure, not to the infrastructure layer. The last decade's infrastructure-investment thesis is unlikely to work over the next 10-15 years; user aggregation lets companies monetize users and capture activity.
Santiago R. Santos Co-Host, Empire / Founder, Inversion Capital 48:10
Crypto value shifts to applications
Value capture in crypto will accrue to deployers and applications that control the user relationship and use open infrastructure, not to the infrastructure layer. The last decade's infrastructure-investment thesis is unlikely to work over the next 10-15 years; user aggregation lets companies monetize users and capture activity.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 52:47
Buy crypto killer apps, avoid infrastructure
Ignoring Bitcoin, the only investable part of crypto is killer apps. Infrastructure investing is like buying Cisco or AT&T in 2000, overbuilt and unlikely to capture value, while applications like Google and Amazon led the post-bust cycle.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 52:47
Buy crypto killer apps, avoid infrastructure
Ignoring Bitcoin, the only investable part of crypto is killer apps. Infrastructure investing is like buying Cisco or AT&T in 2000, overbuilt and unlikely to capture value, while applications like Google and Amazon led the post-bust cycle.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 53:30
Bitcoin bounce after broad deleveraging
Bitcoin has fallen too far too fast with broad deleveraging across gold, Nasdaq, AI and other assets. Once general repositioning ends, at least a bounce is likely, and he remains bullish Bitcoin while less optimistic on crypto ex-Bitcoin.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 54:13
US stocks good into year-end
The stock market is not necessarily in a bubble and should have a good end of the year; trading stocks has been more fun and profitable than crypto, with real opportunities in areas like rare earths and drones.
Jonah Van Bourg Head of Trading, Cumberland / ex-Vitol 54:30
Ethereum is this cycle's Ripple
He is back to being an Ethereum hater and has argued Ethereum will be the Ripple of this cycle: poor value capture, overvaluation, and infrastructure that does not deserve its valuation. He remains less optimistic on crypto outside Bitcoin.
Avi Felman Principal, GoldenTree Asset Management 56:32
Buy Bitcoin below 90K
He likes Bitcoin here and will add below $90K. Forced OG or DAT selling is unlikely, the affordability crisis should push governments toward stimulus/debasement, and he believes the Bitcoin-to-$1M thesis; institutions increasingly understand and can access it.
Up Next

This 1000x Podcast video, published November 17, 2025, features Santiago R. Santos, Jonah Van Bourg, Avi Felman discussing Crypto ex-Bitcoin, BTC, AI-SECTOR, ETH, ALTCOINS, HYPE, SYRUP, UNI, WU, Crypto applications, Crypto Infrastructure, Crypto killer apps, SPY. 16 trade ideas extracted by AI with direction and confidence scoring.

Speakers: Santiago R. Santos, Jonah Van Bourg, Avi Felman  · Tickers: Crypto ex-Bitcoin, BTC, AI-SECTOR, ETH, ALTCOINS, HYPE, SYRUP, UNI, WU, Crypto applications, Crypto Infrastructure, Crypto killer apps, SPY